Hell & ECT

Eternal Conscious Torment

God’s Holiness:

But the holiness of God also has a specifically ethical aspect in Scripture, and it is with this aspect of it that we are more directly concerned in this connection. The ethical idea of the divine holiness may not be dissociated from the idea of God’s majesty-holiness. The former developed out of the latter. The fundamental idea of the ethical holiness of God is also that of separation, but in this case it is a separation from moral evil or sin. In virtue of His holiness God can have no communion with sin, Job 34:10; Hab. 1:13. Used in this sense, the word “holiness” points to God’s majestic purity, or ethical majesty. But the idea of ethical holiness is not merely negative (separation from sin); it also has a positive content, namely, that of moral excellence, or ethical perfection. If man reacts to God’s majestic-holiness with a feeling of utter insignificance and awe, his reaction to the ethical holiness reveals itself in a sense of impurity, a consciousness of sin, Isa. 6:5. Otto also recognizes this element in the holiness of God, though he stresses the other, and says of the response to it: “Mere awe, mere need of shelter from the ‘tremendum’, has here been elevated to the feeling that man in his ‘profaneness’ is not worthy to stand in the presence of the Holy One, and that his entire personal unworthiness might defile even holiness itself.” This ethical holiness of God may be defined as that perfection of God, in virtue of which He eternally wills and maintains His own moral excellence, abhors sin, and demands purity in his moral creatures.

L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 73–74.I think most people get the doctrine of hell wrong before they ever hear it. They get it wrong because at their root, they don’t understand the nature of themselves, and the nature of God (Biblically speaking here). If you think God is just a big fuzzy teddy bear in the sky, then yes, hell would seem ludicrous. But if you have a Biblical understanding of self and God, then the doctrine of hell as a concept will begin from a very different place: He is HOLY HOLY HOLY. Word search on Holiness of God.

The non Christian says, “How dare you tell me what God is like”, yet, the non-Christian REALLY thinks he knows what God is like. So much so, that he knows God so well, that hell cannot exist. Ironic?

Matt 16:18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here we have a comparison of Christ’s church, and hell, which will not prevail against it.

Ironically, although it might not seem related (to most, it might to you), I think the teaching of hell first needs to be anchored in a concept of another point you raised: Of the gospel and/or salvation. Not sure if you caught it, but the phrase you used previously “scriptures … repeatedly endorse the salvation of ALL people.”

……hell, most times I just bury my head in the sand and try to forget the clear statements of God’s Word, or the clear refutation of aionios meaning eternal (Romans 16:25-26, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2).On Jude 7 and the Greek word “eternal”

αἰώνιος (aiōnios). adj. eternal, long-lasting. Describing the nature of something as enduring or eternal.

This adjective is related to the noun αἰών (aiōn, “age”). It describes the quality of something as lasting the eon or enduring the age. Many of the instances in which this word occurs are in reference to something eternal, especially eternal (aiōnios) life (e.g., Matt 19:16; John 4:14; Acts 13:48; Rom 2:7).

Gehenna:

J. A. McGuire-Moushon and Rachel Klippenstein, “Eternity,” ed. Douglas Mangum et al., Lexham Theological Wordbook, Lexham Bible Reference Series (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).

I asked:

“Of ALL”?

or

“For ALL”?

In scripture, this is a major point:

Salvation for all would equate to salvation in Christ being FOR all people. Does that mean everyone is saved? No, not necessarily. That doesn’t follow. Most of all in how scripture teaches it (happy to dive deep here if you want), but in short form: Making something available “for” someone will beg the question if there is a qualifier listed as to how someone receives it. I can make something available for someone without them receiving it.

Alternatively, salvation of….

If Christ came, and bam, all are now saved unconditionally, none of the New or Old Testament would make much sense. Think about actions here. The great commission is to go and make disciples of all nations. Those were Jesus’ last words, his final set of instructions. Why would one need to make disciples of anyone if they are already saved? Why would the early church willingly put themselves in mortal danger to spread the word of Jesus? If they didn’t need to do that for it to make a difference because the good news came, seems like an awful or terrible life they lived dying for the gospel. They would have been better off just relishing in salvation as everyone else was already saved.

As I mentioned previously, I’ll turn to scripture to let out speak for itself in these conversations. I can err in to trying to add (or take away) from scripture, and I try to avoid that.

So, let me start by using the entire corpus of scripture to record what is said about “hell” which I for now will put in quotes until I dissect below the word or words used to describe it.

It’s possible you think this kind of exegesis is overkill in this conversation, but doctrinal issues are rarely listed once. There’s often an entire catalogue of descriptors or instructions in scripture and I’ve always felt it important not only to walk through its full teaching, but be mindful of what to do when there are claims of contradiction, or two teachings on a subject appear to be in conflict.

I hope that I can separate for now the discussion on to two roads:

What scripture says

My feelings or thoughts on it.

So to start with a clear answer: Yes, I believe in “hell” as a teaching. Specifically, that there is a separation of those saved and those not, that result in two very different experiences thereafter. I also believe those experiences (post-death) to be permanent and unchanging. I want to make sure I note here that I am not yet saying above that permanent and unchanging means perpetual torture, or some place where people sit around and delight in watching people burn each other in eternal microwaves.

Gehennah, Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15; 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6

Hades, Matt. 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; 1 Cor. 15:5511 Cor. 15:55 has textual variants where some ancient manuscripts say “O Hades, where is your victory” and others say “O Death where is your victory.”
; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14

Tartaros, 2 Pet. 2:4

So, what I think is crystal clear from scripture: This place exists. So to start I’d look at what scriptures have to say about it and then what I can know and not know based on the teaching below:

Alistair Begg asked, “Is Jesus Christ true in what he says?”. “If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I have to believe exactly what he taught,” Begg said. “If we start from that premise, then we can’t simply excise the hard parts out of it. We’ve got to take him at his word. The most loving person who has ever lived spoke so straightforwardly about the awfulness of hell.”

Hades

Gehenna

In the New Testament, the word hell is translated from the Greek word, Gehenna, which is Hebrew for the “Valley of Hinnom” (Strong’s 1067). This is a place southwest of Jerusalem where, years before the Jews inhabited Israel, pagans in the land would worship Molek by sacrificing children (Leviticus 18:21; Leviticus 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 12:31).

So, I’d say a couple things. Here is how I would create a waterfall narrative moving from the most obvious from its teaching, to the least:

That the Bible teaches about a concept of “hell” in any capacity.
I’m not sure how you could get around that answer being a definitive yes. You’d have to ignore the teachings of many of the prophets, the apostles, and most of all (He speaks about it more than the first two camps of folks), Jesus himself. It’s not only mentioned by that name, but by others as well, and all context is some sort of division/separation/sorting between one’s place after death and another. So if the question is: Does the Bible have something to say or contain teachings about “hell” than yes, 100%. It definitively teaches on the subject. What it teaches is now a separate set of points below.

That the Bible teaches that “hell” is permanent.
To this too, I’d say yes. Of all the passages above I don’t see an accompanying set of teachings that hell is a place that one goes for awhile, and then goes to some other place (heaven, an “in-between” place, or some gradual sanctification after death that starts one place and goes another). There are 40 passages above, and none teach or infer this. If we’re looking at a corpus of material and trying to determine consistency of thought, this “eternal” concept seems to be pretty consistent. Of the above it’s stated explicitly or implicitly in all of them.

That the Bible teaches that hell is “permanent” and/or “eternal”
Yes. Most of these verses literally use the word “eternal” (Greek/Hebrew words are….). So, if the teaching is eternal, I’d reckon that still leaves us with two options of what that means. Either eternally destroyed. Most have called this annihilationism. I guess we could just say some form of a place or result that is permanent, but that permanence is made eternal once that soul/person is destroyed.