M Winger - Homosexuality Notes

Speaking the truth in love. Hating the act is not hating the sinner. Love does not rejoice in evil. Rescue them and others by speaking the truth. God wants to save homosexuals

We cannot often start a conversation about sexual morality without us saying how we love homosexuals or those who call themselves transgender, hate the sin but love the sinner, right? Well, that may or may not be but that saying is not in the Scripture. However, we need to use caution because what does it mean to hate and to love?

Hate is an extreme word and Jesus equated it with murder. Hating the sinner is obviously not right. Hating sin obviously is right. To murder sin is to call for repentance. We are first to hate the sin in our own lives and so murder the sin. To root it out. But this does not mean that we should not judge sin. We are all called to judge. Whoa, wait a minute, didn’t Jesus say: Do not judge otherwise you will be judged? Yes, He did, but it is the context that tells us what kind of judging is wrong. We are not to judge hypocritically. And to say ‘do not judge’ is a form of judging the person who is judging, right?! That’s hypocritical right there! That is, if you are doing the same thing that others are doing and you judge them then you are calling for judgement upon yourself. Indeed, we are told to judge all things. It is a bully who says: do not judge! Know God will judge you for the type of judging.

Judge yourself first and then others.

3 types of judgment: Isai 5:20, reinventing what is moral. Hypocritical ignore my issues : Gal 6. Judge beyond what you know and what God has declared 1 Cor 4:5.

Heb 5:14 “14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

Prophets, apostles and us are to be preachers of righteousness. Expose the world and culture. Eph 5 11 “11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”

To bring to light sin is love.

1 Corinthians 13:6 ESV it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

Honest about sin. Speak the truth in love. To not be honest about sin is to rejoice in it, to approve of it even if we keep quiet about it.

We are told we are haters, or homophobic, or transphobic, or intolerant. None of which is true. We could conversely and perhaps correctly calls them haters of us for holding views contrary to theirs and so they are the one who are intolerant. They are Christianphobic. They have a fear of us and our views. I am not afraid of homosexuals or any of the Alphabet they claim for themselves LGBTTTQQIAA or LGBTQ2+ for short. Even within that Alphabet they are contrary to each other, something I do not have time to go into today.

If any of these Alphabet people came here they would find a welcome for God is calling all people everywhere to come to Him. But, if they were to become members they would first need to have come to Christ and turned from their sin or, at the very least, seek to turn from sin, which, as we shall find, is condemned in the Scripture, which is the foundation of what a Christian believes. A Christian who falls in sexual sin if not automatically thrown out of membership. We all sin. But if there is no movement towards repentance and restoration then they would get excluded from membership until such a time as they come back. Today, I am not talking about Church discipline but the aim is always restoration not exclusion. It is dependent upon the one who has sinned to show they are seeking fellowship with God and with His people.

Some of what we shall talk about may cut close to the bone for either some here or those listening online. If so, follow the admonition in

1 John 1:9 ESV If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confession means agreeing with God that what you did or are doing is wrong. These necessitates us to then turn from that sin towards God. It may mean that you will need advice or put things in place to ensure you do not find yourself giving into temptation again and finding ways to avoid being tempted in the first place. This is true of any sin we commit.

Battle of ideas

Matthew Vines a proponent:

Matthew 7. By their fruit. Human dignity and self-esteem are not to be lauded. Centred on man instead of God.

Gen 1:28

“Being alone is a great evil”. Paul promotes singleness (Rom 7). Adam was truly alone. It is not good to be alone.

The woman as provided as a helper and as ‘an opposite that corresponds to’ not the same (e.g. no another man). They fit together (physically so). This cannot be true of a gay relationship. And no children. They do not represent Christ and the Church.

Two men cause physical violence to each other.

Adam and Eve - prototypes for everyone after them. Indeed, without them there would be no sin and no generations.

Three OT passages:

Gen 19:

Sodom & Gomorrah. The town wants to sleep with the men (angels).

CLAIM: Sin of Sodom was inhospitality.

God must really think that is very very evil. God must feel really strongly about this!

Sodom had a lot of sin: Pride, injustice, proud of sin, committing abomination. Jude 7: “7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.”

Strange flesh- a category that is wrong - all the cities are accused of going after unnatural flesh (not angels). Give us the ‘man’. Does not endorse loving homosexual relationships. Rather condemns the action.

Not just rape. The nature of attraction. Anything other than right. Wrong kind of flesh. All the cities were homosexual so not about ‘angel’ attraction.

Blanket condemnation - not if, they loved each other…

Leviticus 18:22 “22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

Consequence:

Leviticus 20:13“13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.”

Man and woman: Appropriate thing to do: Get married!

(How to apply the OT Law - Mike Winger)

The moral truths are still applicable. Jesus quoted directly from Leviticus. Be holy!

No eating of pork, shellfish, cutting particular hair. Not subject to the old law.

How to apply OT Law.

We are not under the law but we are to apply and learn from it. All Scripture is given… We don’t cast off the law. We are specifically told in the NT that all food is clean. Holy days are optional. Sacrifices have ended. Reaffirmation of moral truths from the OT and its law. Jesus quoted Leviticus: love one another. Peter: Be holy as I am holy. Ten times quoted.

Leviticus is first to the Jew. But then to the Gentile.

1 Timothy 1:8–11 “8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.”

Love God and love your neighbour.

Lev 18. Holiness Code.

The nations before did them. That is why they were exiled or destroyed.

We don’t make rules based on exceptions. The list descends from less to worst. (Menstrual - ceremonial).

The word ‘abomination’ though in English a lot - the Hebrew word used is specifically ONLY used in Lv 18 & 20 in the plural - and only in the singular when addressed specifically to homosexuality.

The argument that I have heard so often about abomination to be about all sorts of things including having clothing of two different materials is NOT the same word that condemns moral actions mentioned in Leviticus 18. The context clearly condemns all the actions including homosexuality. Very clearly verses 1-2 and then 24 onwards say that the people before were defiled and expunged from their land because of these actions - the Gentiles were thrown out, who were not under the law. Untimed moral law.

These acts defile the land and the Gentiles were removed because of them! God judged non-believers for it. So it is not just OT law to be set aside - it is a law for all time for all peoples.

The demonization of the OT. Careful. Children being stoned are not really children: drunkards - a child?

Romans 1:26–27

“26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.” Pro-homosexuals claim that being alone is inherently wrong. The Bible does not say that it is evil.

Bible condemns all homosexuality with no qualifications. Also E.g. adultery is wrong unless they really love each other! (Right!)

Plato talks of three created human beings c300+BC symposium. Men. Women. Mixed. Men who like women. Women who like Men. And the others same sex.

Nero married two men.

All relationships that exist today existed in the past.

Natural/unnatural. The third category that Plato speaks of is not known in Scripture (or in nature or born that way).

Does love make sin OK? You do not need to love in order to sleep together - even if you are a man and a woman married together!

All forms of sexuality was known in Greece and Rome including life-long same sex relationships. Nothing new under the sun. Not all exploitative. Including identity. Gay historian: Lewis Crompton: Homosexuality and Civilisation says that Paul, the Jews and Christians never accepted any kind of homosexual relationship as OK whether loving or not under any circumstance.

NT Wright: They knew (Rome and Greece) about stable relationships of a homosexual relationship. Not just exploitative. It is historically untrue that Paul and others did not know about these kind of things.

Natural and unnatural: Assumes that people are born that way. It is also not about exploitation.

Does love make sin ok?

Even a man and a woman in marriage have sex - love or no love! It is not a love issue. It is a design issue.

Physes: natural physical. Natural = Physical

They twist what the bible calls wrong to make them right.

Physical acts of homosexuality is wrong. Desire as a temptation and not a good thing.

Natural/unnatural - not cultural/custom as some claim to be. 14 times what is our physical nature: Gal 4:8, Rom 2:27, Rom 11:21, 2 Peter 1:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:9–10

“9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:11“11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

The word for sodomite (ἀρσενοκοῖται)is the first time it is EVER used in Ancient Literature. Quoting Lev18 Lev 20. Arsenas. Coiten. Male bedding a male. μαλακοὶ transated homosexual = soft. Hence KJV effeminate. So, is the female/passive role in the relationship. Sweeping condemnation of the active and passive. Vulgate AD 450, 450AD Men who lie with other males. 463AD those who lie with men. 1890AD women of themselves and abuse themselves with men. 1852 Youngs: Sodomite. All translations agree. KJV uses euphemisms.

Active partner is not the only one condemned. Christians introduced a particular ethic not found elsewhere. The passive partner is not abused or a victim but is condemned too.

The whole spectrum is included.

All forms of homosexuality is condemned. Paul is being counter-cultural. Both the male and female/passive partners are condemned.

1 Timothy 1:10

“10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,”

1 Timothy 1:10 NKJV

10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

ἀρσενοκοῖται

The word ‘homosexual’ was only invented in 1869 which is why it does not appear in earlier translations - but how it has been translated it is obvious that this is what is being condemned. Scripture condemns the behaviour - both gays outside of Christendom and Christian within know this.

Same word found in 1 Cor 9 as the male who sleeps in the same bed.

Scripture always condemns homosexuality. Straight and gay agree. The English has translated them correctly.

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1 Cor 7 Marriage does not necessarily deal with lust - it is there to confine it to its proper quarters. What if you burn for lust for another woman. Should she be married too?! If you can marry marry but stay single otherwise. Good and better. Beginning to end: Man and woman only. No Scripture to support homosexual marriage.

Homosexual orientation was known in Rome.

Jesus did not talk about homosexuality therefore it is OK - is also said. I don’t think he mentioned a lot of things…like drugs, rock and roll, killing dogs is OK. Just because he did not say does not mean He approves.

Not only that all Jews already believed that homosexuality was a sin and therefore why speak to it?

And then, we do not know everything Jesus said!

Jesus believed the OT. And when speaking of divorce spoke of Genesis. (Mat 19:3-6). God invented marriage and He defines the terms.

But Jews have always condemned this behaviour

1 Peter 1:11 Christ speaking through them.

Fornication and sexual immorality also naturally included adultery and homosexuality.

Matthew 19:4-6 4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

This is the basis of marriage.

Sexual immorality included adultery and homosexual behaviour. Anything outside of one man one woman.

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Theology & Science

Homosexual: same sex erotic attractions.

Are we born gay? SO what if you are? Is it good to behave in this way? Who knows - because of sin it is in the genetics, but sin is sin!

I didn’t choose this. I can’t change me. Therefore, if you reject this you reject me. However, the problem is that it is not based in truth and science. It is assumed.

Unchangeable!

Romans 1 talks of the desire to be vile and inappropriate

Are people born gay? What does it matter? It matters because God made them this way! This is who I am supposed to be and therefore it is good and right! I have no choice it is like my skin colour. Genetically forced upon me. You are rejecting ‘me’ if you do not accept me when I come out and be what I am supposed to be. Unchangeable identity issue. Affect theology. Parents are counselled - they were born that way.

Howard Dean: He would not have created gay people if He thought it was a sin. “If God didn’t want people to be gay, why did he make so many gay people?” Natural does not make people good. “If God does not like idiots, why did he make so many without common sense?” If God didn’t want people to be adulterers, why do so many ruin their marriages this way?

How I am born does not equal this is what I should do.

BUT, Christian: if you can be born that way but it is still wrong for God says it is. We are born selfish. Born violent. Born with desire for animals or children. Fleshly. BUT self control. Sin nature. BUT new nature when following Christ.

Ephesians 2:3 “3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

Num 15 39 “39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined,”

Whether gods or women…or men with men…or...

Born with sinful desire, repentance in faith in Christ is the solution.

Die to self, talk up your cross, deny self.

What if…the mass murderer has a gene that predisposes them to murder?!

“I didn’t chose to be this way” - Most who claim are ‘gay’ fall into this category.

So maybe not born but nurture…circumstances. You chose to do but not do. Desires remain with us. Sinful desires doesn’t make us non-Christian. (Plus our identity is in Christ not in any sinful behaviour)

The science disagrees with born this way.

No conclusive evidence of this. No gay gene. News sensationalise everything for money. And there is bias.

1. 1991: Nature: Simon Levey in ‘Science Magazine’ Levey - no difference found. Levey - said it does not prove homosexual gene. Levey is gay. Tried to find evidence BUT gave up science because he did not find.

2. 1993: Nature: Dean Hamer in ‘Science Magazine’ Hamer: Lacked a control group. Co-scientist: but hid result of control group. Not repeatable science. George Rice XQ228: do not support anything to do with homosexuality. Larger study did not repeat the conclusions. Investigation opened into Hamer. Hamer: the best studies said it was more to do with environment and absolutely NOT born that way.

Identical twins: one can be homosexual and the other is not. 25000 twins. 1 in 9 times. not enough genetic proof or environmental factors as most twins share the same house.

NOT TRUE - NOT BORN THIS WAY

This fallacy continues to exist in the public view because it is really useful to overcome arguments against those who know no better.

Gay groups are and having to come to terms with this. Instead the only thing they agree on is consent.

Is it changeable?

Then conversion therapy can work. Vitoral comes against those who say you can change.

Some people have the same temptations all their lives. Flip a switch. Unfortunately not.

All of us struggle with the flesh daily. To walk in the Spirit. Sin is not acceptable. Follow Christ.

Our goal is not happiness on earth but to follow Christ. When we’ve been there in Heaven all those years the things of this earth will be a shadow, if that. It will be long forgotten.

Mark 8:34–38 NKJV

34When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Marriage is not the be all and end all.

But could orientation change?

10800 adolescence 16-22 . 61% of males exclusive at 16 same sex changed to female at aged 17.

81% of females the same changed for males in one year. 17-22 similar result 75% opposite from 17 to aged 22.

Neil Whitehead. Vast majority transitioned: 25 times more likely to change to opposite than those heterosexual becoming ssa.

Default orientation

There are more exgays than gays. Spontaneously without therapy or influence.

Instances of adults changing too: 1 Cor 6:9-11 such were some of you. Ancient letter claims that they left behind homosexuality.

“Pyschological Reports” in 2000. After therapy changes took places.

15% changed out of 98 followed. ‘Truly gay’ (strongest attraction) had the greatest change. 2007

1882 Jean Martin Homosexual to hetrosexual

1920 Freud changed some homosexuals pyscho analysis.

100s of accounts of change

Change is not easy.

Aren’t conversion therapy harmful? some can be. The examples are always the worst examples that can be given: just bad therapy anyway.

All same sex immutable is not true. Violates personal choice.

The behaviour is wrong.

Hold the Scriptures in a true loving way and say sin is sin and maybe ostracised by the world.

Nicolas Cummings changed. Himself and ex-gay: Since then, the role of psychotherapy in sexual orientation change efforts has been politicized. Gay and lesbian rights activists appear to be convincing the public that homosexuality is one identical inherited characteristic. To my dismay, some in the organized mental health community seem to agree, including the American Psychological Association, though I don't believe that view is supported by scientific evidence... A political agenda shouldn't prevent gays and lesbians who desire to change from making their own decisions. Whatever the situation at an individual clinic, accusing professionals from across the country who provide treatment for fully informed persons seeking to change their sexual orientation of perpetrating a fraud serves only to stigmatize the professional and shame the patient.

Media and advert: desensitise with constant exposure (gay character in every programme), jamming - make opposition the bad people - make then villains, conversion - not just accepting, but to approve.

“But they love each other”. But what is love here? Intensity of feelings and emotions? So not love but desire. 1 John 3 16 “16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” Self-sacrifice. Biblical love is not chiefly a romantic thing. Brotherly love is. Love means not committing sexual immorality. Love does not rejoice in iniquity. Sin hurts you and others. Love God, is first. ‘Love’ does not make it OK. ‘love’ in adultery is OK? Love and lust are not the same.

Slogans vs Health Risks

“Two consenting adults makes it OK” What they do in the bedroom is up to them!

Anything they do? Lack of consent is turning something good into something evil. But it cannot be the other way round. Consent cannot turn something evil into something good. Two consenting adults commit adultery. Consent does not make it OK. This is humanism. Moral relativism. God’s consent is actually what matters.

“Bigot and homophobe” Falsely accused. automatically. God then are these things. Response: You’re a bully. Do you think incest is wrong? Incestphobe! So you hate those who commit incest? No! I hate what they do not them! Oh, so now you fall into the moral category!

“you are the reason so many commit suicide” me? really? I am? No correlation that being gay or abused and suicide. Same number of gays as straight commit suicide.

ad hominen. to the man. when you have nothing to argue against the point so you accuse the person of having big ears or something. So accuse them of wanting to burn churches and murder christians and see their response. No I don’t - yes you do… and so on.

“on the wrong side of history like the church always is”. Myth: the church did not believe the world was flat. No one thought this. Myth: not heliocentric. Copernicus. Galileo went to jail for ‘on the revolution of the heavenly sphere’ and put the pope’s word into the fool’s mouth. Making fun of his holiness landed him in jail. Revisionist history. Christians are the ones who pushed for true beliefs.

“Telling homosexual couples they cannot marry is the same as telling interracial couples they cannot marry” Gender difference is massive. You cannot have children.

Secular case against homosexuality:

What impact does the individual? society? It is bad for both. Physical afflictions. Bodies are not designed for this. Chronic incontinence. Prostate damage. Fissures that cause infections. AIDS. Syphilis 75% of all cases (CDC). STDs and viral infections. 75% of them. in space of 1 year 40% will. Cancers: colon and breast cancer higher among gays and lesbians. 20 times more likely to get anal cancer but if HIV - 40 times. 1.2 million - most through male to male behaviour - AIDS - rectum. 50000 new infections (78% are due to gay sex (less than 2% of the population getting 78%)).

Drug and substance abuse - double in the homosexual community. 35% of lesbians have an alcohol abuse problem compared to 5% of the rest of the female population. Pro-gay sites tell us these things; 45% LGBT (Pride institute) alcohol (15% of the rest of the population). 51% of males have taken other drugs - 7% in general. Depression, suicide. 101-500 sex partners over a life time. 20 partners per year. Only 17% of men 10% of women have had more than one partner in a year. Even in so-called loving long-term relationships they are almost NEVER monogamous. 41% have agreements with their partners to open relationships. Anything over 5 years most have agreements. Not a parallel to marriage. The agreements keep them together.

Losing years off the life. For the safety of society alone.

They cannot have children. Society cannot continue without them!

Inferior in raising children: same sex marriage/parent> Mark Regnerus: Social science research: Fared worse in 77 out of 100 evaluation measures: e.g. Welfare. Education. Safety. Depression. Arrested. Sexual immorality. 3 times more unlikely to be heterosexual. Sexual abuse: Lesbian - 10 times more likely to be abused by parent or adult care giver (23% touched as a child - 2% of biological). Male gay 3 times. Rape 3-10 times as much.