Guns

Alright, let's see. Continue.

We haven't figured out why our screen turns off every 2 minutes or thereabouts. If if you're a techie kind of person in you, one at a time and see how long it is, and figure out why it does it. We would welcome that Because it's kind of a kind of weird. All right, we have been in this series called hot topics for a hot month and man we have just jumped right into the frying pan. I came up with a list originally and provided survey and we picked together which top for topics we were talking about that. There was a tie for first place. So we extended that and so this is one of the tied for fourth place topics today. So we've talked about environment, race abortion, lgbtq + and Today's topic is guns. so, let me start with

Let me start with a couple of story and that that's probably what the screen will save Anjali stories. So first of all, about guns, I want to just acknowledge that I am gun illiterate Relatively speaking, we didn't have any guns and our house and I don't know whose deal that was. I think it was my mom's cuz my dad went hunting a few times with some friends and I think my dad probably like that guns were cool, but it must have been my mom. And why my mom was a farm. Girl, I would assume there were some guns on the farm, but maybe it was cheese, world war ii-era. No gun. So we can, I remember that as like a second grader. I loved playing guns with the other little boy, that lived on our cul-de-sac. So, I happen to find a metal gun about that big. You can hold it like this and go. And I I I remember the empty lot next to our house and the two other boys in our cul-de-sac, they had holsters and like very realistic-looking guns and they're pulling there and I'm hiding behind a bush. I can I can picture the bush and I'm betting, rather voice going.

All right. Now fast forwards to my adult life. And there's a couple of great guys in Rockford who were going to help me experience guns, and take me bird hunting. So, the first thing we did was on a couple of Saturdays. We went to a shooting range and we shot clay pigeons. And you know, I I learned important things like don't point the gun that way it's loaded and how it works. And and eventually I got to where I could get hit the occasional clay pigeon and so they figured okay, I think we're ready. So now it's bird hunting day. These two guys for dogs and John, and I, you know, I'm borrowing a double barrel, shotgun side-by-side double barrel shotgun, and they put me in front and we're going to stand. In front of me. And they said, here's how it's going to go, John, the the dog will flush the bird. When when the bird is flying, it's all you. And when you empty, both of your barrels, if the bird still flying, then we'll shoot. So we this was our day, the dogs would flush a bird and you'd hear a boom, boom! And a bird would just be flying happily along and then you'd hear and down the road would go. Except for one time, one time the dogs flush the bird and you heard boom and the bird went down and John is just popping out his chest like yeah, baby, I know what I'm doing.

That's about as much as I know. So I thought I need to go talk to somebody who really knows guns. And I had heard that Sam and Carrie niemeyer's dad has a Gun Room, carries walking little baby around in the back of the room there and And that they have this family party, where they all get together and shoot guns. So, his name is Bob Drew. I called him. Could I come over and see, your gun room? Would you tell me about your party? I drove to Coral this farm that he lives on and I saw his gun room. It's a room because they wouldn't all fit in like a safe. There's 30 maybe rifles to start 30 shotguns and right long, guns, 30, long guns. Many of them are Shotguns, over-and-under double barrel side-by-side, double barrel. I don't know what you call the kind that's got a single barrel and you can put the second shell in and then it kind of wrecked it's up and I'm sure there's a name for that and I was really curious. So I I asked him to tell me about every one of the guns us. Most of them have wood stocks and I, I don't know guns but I know a little bit about Woodworking and so I really love the the wood, the craftsmanship of guns. The metal craftsmanship in the in the wood craftsmanship of these guns. His biggest one is a 10 gauge shotgun. That thing is having, it looks like an elephant gun and the smallest gauge, shotgun is a 28 gauge. I think it is kind of would be a much lighter sort of weapon to carry and too far. And then some of them rifles. And I'm I'm not good at my gauges of rifles. So I know the smallest. One is a 22. What the biggest bullet is I couldn't tell you except that it's About that long and it's kind of fat. And it looks like if you fired that thing, it would if you really go. So some of them Are ornate with engraving and others of them are very plain but all of them are really pieces of workmanship. And then Bob has, I would say 10 handguns. He's got a 44 magnum because it is Dirty Harry gun. Just a, you know, it's like a cannon that you can hold with your aunt and but I was maybe most fascinated by the the kind of concealed carry gun. I guess you would call it small. A small little gun with a Magazine. That that I'm bad at the gun terminology. I'm sorry, I'm stumbling around here. I've got that little thing that you put in there with the bullets in it, but Small and really intelligently designed and lightweight. And you could put it in the small of your back. Or I don't know where people carry their gun. So I guess you can have your shirt out and it hangs over in and nobody knows. I was there. So, okay, not tell me. Tell me about the family gun Gathering. So, on this Saturday, after the Saturday immediately following the 4th of July, they have their family gun party and extended family. And friends. Come there been, lots of people there like men, be as many as 100 people have gum and they lined. Everybody brings their guns, they line up all these guns that have one field that's for shooting clay pigeons and they have another field that's for handguns and rifles. And there's a stand that's got bowling pins hanging from string. And the inexperienced Shooters, see if they can shoot a bowling pin and the experience shooter, see if they can shoot the string and just all day long, people are shooting guns, you bring your gun, you bring your ammunition. If there's a gun that you're interested in that you've never shot before you ask, can I can I try shooting that gun. And yeah, you can shoot that gun, and the kids are around, and it's a part of how they learn. The the safety of guns and it's this big happy family gathering. Which sounded like a lot of fun. Maybe maybe carry. I'll get an invite someday.

Okay, I asked God.

Give me something to say about guns from his word in about a month ago. I felt like God gave me this word for today and so I would like to read Psalm 20 and I think there's some good stuff and Psalm 24 us For the director of Music, a Psalm of David may the Lord answer you. When you are in distress, May the name of the god of Jacob protect you.

May he send you help from the sanctuary and Grant, you support from Zion. May he remember all your sacrifices and accept your burnt offerings May he give you the desire of your heart and make all your plans succeed. Maybe shout for Joy. Over your Victory and lift up our banners, in the name of our God, may the Lord grant all your requests. Now this I know the Lord gives Victory to his anointed. He answers him from his Heavenly Sanctuary with the Victorious power of His right hand. Some trust in chariots and some in horses but we trust in the name of the Lord, Our God they are brought up, they are brought to their knees and fall but we rise up and stand firm.

Lord give Victory to the king answer us when we call, it's a specially David, were you getting me through those slides? Is that how that was happening? Okay, sorry. And then there's no use me holding this thing and clicking it as if it does anything.

Could you go back to verse 7?

That's the verse that I want to talk about and you're already thinking why? I know what John's going to say, but I don't think, you know what, John's going to say. But before I get there, let's go back to the beginning. Let's go back to verse 1 new. I just want to show you kind of the shape of the song. First of all, it's called a Psalm of David. And usually, that means David wrote. It could mean that David wrote this, but it seems maybe to me more a psalm for David or about David, because David's the king and it's a Psalm about asking for God's blessing on the, the activity of the king and every phrase has gotten it. May the Lord answer, you may the Lord protect you. Let's just kind of scroll to Dave. A verse to may, he send you help. May he Grant you support. May he remember your sacrifices and accept your burnt offerings? May he give you the desire of your heart, may he make your plans succeed?

I need a little break before we go on this. Just take a little break here.

Oh yeah, I feel better now. Okay, maybe we shout for Joy, over your Victory lift up our banners, may the Lord grant, you grant all your requests. That's the first part of the song. Then second part of the psalm is a representative person. Stands up to share a testimony and says but still the same kind of thing gods. And every phrase the Lord gives Victory, the Lord answers, the Lord answers with the power of His right hand. Oh, we trust in the name of the Lord. Our God, they're brought to their knees, but we rise up and stand firm and then the the closing line. Lord, give Victory to the king answer us when we call. So it's It's a song about God being involved in everything. and,

Okay. Now I told you the verse that that stood out to me, was some may trust in chariots. Some may trust in horses, but we will trust in the name of the Lord Our God. And what I think you might be thinking is John's from California, you know, they're the hippy-dippy he's over there and so he's going to say, you don't need your guns. You just need God. that would, that would be a natural thing for a person who grew up in my house to say, because I had that little gun, so I've only had it cuz I found it. But that's not what I want to say. Here's what I want to say.

very, The nation of Israel had weapons of war, they had chariots, and they had horses. And they had a king and David was for a time, their King and David was victorious in battle. So they had weapons of war and they went to war. So this song is not about, you don't need, you don't need weapons because this is all about asking, God, to bless the activity of the king of the people of Israel, as he's saving his people. But they're saying ultimately their safety is not about horses and chariots, it's about their relationship to God. And I wrote down there at the bottom, Yahweh or the Lord in the Old Testament. God identifies his name to Moses. When Moses asked him, if I'm going to go to the Israelites who are going to tell them sent to me, and God says, tell them Yahweh, I am sent you in the English Bible. If you see in the Old Testament of the Bible Lord spelled in all capital letters, that's the translation of that name. God gives to himself Yahweh So this is what I think. God has to say to you and me, broadly on this topic of guns, whether your Me grew up in the snow gun shirt at home. And by the way, I don't have a gun now, but the reason I don't have a gun now, is I don't, I'm not comfortable with guns. They scare me. So if I owned a gun, I would, and if I put one in my belt, I would be afraid I was going to shoot myself or I would be afraid that I'm going to shoot somebody. I love with my own gun, or at least, I'd be afraid that a criminal is going to break in and take my gun and shoot me with it. I'm better off without me again, that's the that's my conclusion. But whether you're me or you, whether you have a gun or don't have a gun, ultimately, Are the life that we are looking for the life. We're hoping for the life we want, we received as a gift from God and there may be guns. There may not be guns involved. People of Israel understood. We have the weapons of war, we have chariots and horses, and bows, and slingshots, and swords. But we're dependent upon. This God which only have a relationship to live our lives? Kind of idea about guns, but I thought we probably should try to talk directly to some of the questions that might have been in your mind when you thought this would be a good thing for us to talk about on a Sunday. So let's see. What does the Bible have to say about some of the questions regarding guns and the first? Yet some questions. First question is, how does God feel about guns in general? And first of all, we have to acknowledge the Bible never talks about guns because they didn't exist. But we have just been talking about weapons and the people of Israel having weapon. So I don't think there's anything in the Bible that says we shouldn't have. We shouldn't have weapons and I have a couple of Bible passages and Luke chapter 22. Jesus says to his disciples, but now if you have a purse, take it. And if you have a bag, take it. And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Jesus says this just before he's arrested and is crucified in before he's going to rise from the dead and before he's going to return to his father. He sent his disciples out on short-term mission trips in which he's told them. You don't need to worry about a bag or sandals or or closed, just go and you'll have what you need. But now he's saying because he's going to be leaving them. Now, you're going to be on a on a permanent Mission. And now you should be thinking about money, and you should take it back if you have it. And now you're going to be traveling on these isolated roads were where crime happens and now you should get yourself the basic defensive resource of the day, a sword. When Jesus said that to his disciples, they didn't get that. He was talking about the change that was going to happen, which is him leaving. They just thought Jesus wants storage. Now, for some reason, so they say, look, Lord, we got to, and he goes, yeah, that's enough. But they really didn't understand what he was trying to tell them. But I think the point we can take from it is Jesus, is telling his disciples. to procure for themselves the basic To love of Defense of Peter, taking his sword and cutting off the ear of the servant of the high priests, when they come to arrest Jesus. The reason that that's a problem is not that stored. The reason that's a problem is Jesus had told Peter, very clearly that he was going to be arrested and that he was going to die and Peters. Peter would not hear that from Jesus. And this is just another example of Jesus being unwilling to receive that message from Jesus and he's getting in the way. It's not the sword, that's the problem, but Jesus doesn't say something about sword. She says, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword, which I take to be a matter of wisdom.

I would say the Bible puts guns in the realm of wisdom. If you, if we have guns, we have some wisdom related decisions to make as a country. One of the things that comes up is gun control. What does the Bible say about gun control? If somebody pulls a Bible out and has has proof text, I think they've got it wrong. I think In the realm of guns and things like gun control. It's a it's a matter of wisdom discernment for the citizens of our country. What what do we want our country to be like, what rules do we think there ought to be around guns? What do we discern in wisdom, together? Certainly we can pray about it together and God will give us wisdom when we asked for him. But I think all of this would be in that category of freedom and wisdom. Alright. But let's get you a more specific question. How does God feel about you? Having a gun for self-defense? Those rifles or shotguns of Bob's are really about hunting the rifles that fire bullets. The handguns. Are self-defense weapons. So how do you suppose God feels about you having a self-defense weapon, we just saw the get yourself a sword storyline from Jesus. So that's self-defense weapon. But I I was looking at this really fascinating Bible verse which is exit is 22 versus 2 and 3. If a thief is caught breaking in at night and is struck a fatal, blow the defender is not guilty of Bloodshed. This is when God is giving Moses rules for the people of Israel about how they're going to conduct their lives. So if if you one principle here, is it okay to protect your stuff. Another principle here is it okay? To defend yourself if somebody breaks into your home at night and there's this confusion and you can't see and you're defending yourself notice. There's not a, there's not a gun at this point in history, but you got a club and the club comes out and you're defending yourself and the thief is killed. You're not guilty of Bloodshed our laws. In many cases are built on the Old Testament laws, that God gave to Moses, but notice if it happens after Sunrise, the defender is guilty of bloodshed. Seems to mean if the thief breaks and when it's light and you can see that person. If there's another way to get out of that situation without taking a human life because of human life is precious. We saw that a couple of weeks ago on the abortion, Sunday human life matters to God. If there's any way that you can handle this situation without taking of another life, you should do it. So I don't know what that would be run out the back door and scream for help run to the neighbor and have the neighbor come and help you find the perpetrator. Maybe there's a way to fight back and not take the life.

If in the daytime, a life is taken. I think what this means is there's going to need to be an accounting. For what were the exact circumstances that led to this person's life being taken in? There's a, there's a liability. So guilty of Bloodshed, I think at least able to be accused of Bloodshed. So, You have a gun for self-defense. I think this just says, That's a serious matter. That gun is it's a tool but is this it's a very serious tool and people I've talked to who taken concealed carry classes have all told me that what you get taught in a concealed carry class is you don't just pull that gun out and wave it around. It's a serious matter and if you brandish your weapon, you ought to have thought through the possibility that you're going to use that weapon. And that possibly somebody's life is going to be taken. God takes that life seriously. So we need just to be Sirius week, we need to take the seriousness into account.

I don't have one. And that I appreciate not having that responsibility, but if you have one, I appreciate that. You are taking that responsibility. A police officer came to the church that I used to be a pastor of in Rockford and they were, I think they were saying we want to be a part of this church. So he asked me to go out for coffee. When I for coffee, this is what he wanted to talk about. He said, if I'm at church and somebody breaks in and they start shooting people, he said, I will have my gun because I always have my gun, and I have certifications. That allow me to take my gun anywhere even into a school. So he said I, if I'm at church, I've got my gun. Somebody comes in and they start shooting people. What do you want me to do? And I said, okay, let me get this, right? We're at church, somebody's coming to have started shooting the church people and you're in the room and you have your gun and you're wondering, why do I want you to do? And I said,

I think. if somebody broke in and started shooting people and you didn't help us, I would be angry at you. And he said, good answer, it's only one today. That's all I wanted to talk about. that was me, that got me thinking, but my main thought was What a responsibility. To be the a person who's carrying that weapon and take and to carry that weight. I I respect it and respected it.

I think that's how God feels about it, it's it's okay but it's a serious thing to do. How about if we talked about one other thing, how does God feel about war? I'm fascinated by how Christians Have Been instrumental in creating what's called just War Theory because Christians have asked a question. Can I follow Jesus and go to war and under what kind of circumstances would it ever be okay to conduct War? Life is precious. So, how could Christians ever be involved in war? That's the just War Theory question and here's The set of questions that the just War Theory theorists have come up with overtime.

I start taking a little break. How about you guys? Okay, let's go back at it. All right. Is it for a just cause And the just cause that's most often stated is self-defense. A nation coming to its own self defense. Is it from a legitimate Authority? You don't have the right as an individual to decide. There's going to be a war and get your gun out and start killing people. There needs to be some kind of legitimate, Authority communal decision with with some processes involved to make a decision like that. Is it with the right intention? If a politician says, you know, what if we went to war, it would get me reelected. And that's the reason that you have gone to war that is not Adjust War by just War Theory. Does it have proportionality? The whole idea here is that it's conceivable that going to war would be less harmful than not going to war. So the question is by going to war, will there be less harm done? Then if you didn't go to war and if by going to war you're just going to multiply the misery in the pain then then it's perhaps not just is it the last resort. and then, there is a list of Questions that those are questions to ask before you go to war. Here's the list of questions to ask During war, the next slide. Doesn't discriminate are you discriminating between combatants and civilians? In just War, there is not the need, you fight the combatants and not the civilians. There's a proportionality on a case-by-case level. You have this military

Goal in a particular situation. Is this idea that you have? Important enough to justify the lives that are going to be risked in the doing of it. No unethical mean, so there is in human history in present human history, pillage and rape, and all kinds of awful stuff that gets done in war to create Terror in the hearts of people, so that you can do what you want to do. But there is not an excuse ever. For unethical means, and in our era, we've we've begun to prosecute such things. And since World War II following orders, I was just following orders is not A defense that one can make the next slide? This is I think the most helpful thing.

Just War theory, has the idea that you citizens are a part of the process of deciding whether a war is just, we the people have a role in this discernment. It's in this realm of freedom and wisdom. That God calls us to you, all right? Flashlight.

Some trust in chariots, some in horses. If you eat, if you have chariots and horses, good. But the people of Israel understood our, our lives and our safety are in the hands of God.

Looks like a good way to end our hot topics series. Thanks to you for being patient with me and me trying to articulate these things. Thanks for us and being patient with each other. This is what communities of Jesus followers do together. That's pregnant.

Lord. We thank you for the fact that you do have something to say to the hot topics of our day. And we, thank you as Julie said in her purse earlier that you're showing us how to love each other and be together, even though we might have differences of opinion about things. In our world, people line up on opposite sides of the street and hate each other. And we're asking you did to give us wisdom from your word and direction from your word because your word is life. But also the ability to be a community of love in Jesus name in a in a real in a real neighborhood with real differences of practice and opinion in our world.

So thank you for this conversation and your presents with us as we've been in it and now Lord. we pray that you

you didn't print this on our hearts. that it's good to trust chariots and horses, but ultimately What we trust is in our relationship to you and your presents. Speak to us about that in Jesus name, amen.

Would you stand up? We're not going to have a closing song. We're just going to end now with the blessing.

Tell me when you're ready. You ready? Okay. May the Lord bless you and keep you may the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to. You may the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace and everybody said, amen. you're just,