Hot Takes pt. 3 | TWENTY-THIRTY Event

STARTER QUESTIONS

Intro yourselves - names, what you do for the church.

Start by talking about how there are essentials of the faith and where there is room to have wrestle with things and have varying opinions

LEVITY/STARTER:

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1. Is it okay for Christians to be on dating apps? (Gray)

Let’s talk through it.

Does the bible explicitly forbid dating or dating apps? Obviously not!

Dating did not exist then, and obviously there were no smart phones. There were more or less arranged marriages. You were betrothed, like a vamped up engagement, then marriage.

Romantic relationships, biblically, seem to be confined to those settings - engagement and marriage.

So it’s less about it being “okay” in the sense of “is it sinful or not,” and more a matter of “is it wise for me?”

1 Corinthians 10:23-24, 31

“I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others. . . 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

So in the first place, how do you date to the glory of God?

I would say, biblically, it would need to be aligned towards God’s view of romantic relationships — which is to say, moving towards monogamous, covenantal marriage. Not giving your heart or your body to lots of people all the time. Dating in a way that honors the other person, respects them, and their future spouse.

It also means dating in a way that you’re committed to God’s design for sexuality, which is also intended to be experienced only in the context of that covenantal relationship of marriage.

Can you date folks off a dating app to the glory of God?

Sure, but it will look different than what’s common out there. You won’t be going on those apps for hook ups or quick flings. You’ll be going with a different posture, looking to date in a different way, with different priorities and boundaries.

If you personally can’t use dating apps in a way that glorifies God (because of temptations or whatever else), I’d say it’s not okay for you to be on it.

—> So yes, dating apps are okay, but for you, personally, is it wise? That’s the question you have to answer.

EXISTENCE OF GOD/FREE WILL V. SOVEREIGNTY

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2. If God created Earth and all things then what or who created God? (Daniel) -- 5 minutes

At some point there has to be a first cause, an uncreated origin.

Christianity at least provides a good answer. Theoretical physicists point to a big bang, but don’t have an answer for what created the big bang. I think theism makes much more sense of the world and the questions we have about where it came from.

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3. Why did God make man & Free will when Gods omniscience knew man would choose sin? // How can we be predestined but also be able to make our own choices? (Daniel)

What do we mean by the phrase free will?

Many times we mean “absolute freedom from all external forces or limitations.” But that’s not real free will — nobody has that kind of freedom but God.

We’re all limited — by our need for oxygen, by what our bodies can and cannot do, by the laws of the universe. So we really are free in a sense, just not absolutely, and God is more free than we are.

If we are equally as free or more free than God, then either he isn’t really God, or maybe we’re all gods and goddesses too. Both of those are clearly not the case, either in reality or in the way the Bible teaches us.

The Bible affirms both God’s absolute freedom to rule over his creation (his sovereignty, leading to predestination) and human freedom and moral responsibility. It’s not a contradiction so much as it is a mystery.

God must have reasons that we don’t understand to allow man to sin even though he knew it would happen — reasons that show that this world is better than any other possible world that could have existed. That’s probably a good segue into the next question.

EVIL/SIN/SALVATION

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4. Why does an all good (omni-benevolent) all powerful (omnipotent) god allow evil and suffering? (Gray)

I don’t know.

Let’s move on...

I do not know the answer to this question.

I do know what the answer is not...

1) It can’t be that he isn’t really all powerful.

We established God as the sovereign creator of all things. Once you accept that, you have to accept that He’s powerful enough to intervene and remove evil if he wants to.

Then the question becomes: Why doesn’t he? Is he not good?

2) It can’t be that he really isn’t all good, that he doesn’t care, or that he doesn’t love us.

The climactic moment of history - of the biblical story - is when God steps into his creation in the person of Jesus, suffers unjustly, is nailed to a Roman cross, experiences the depths of betrayal and loss, dies, and is buried.

The Christian God, unlike the so called gods of other religions, is the only God who has Himself gone through suffering and come out the other side. The whole crux of the story is based on a historically verifiable event — the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

The New Testament authors help us understand why God would do this: because he loves us. Because he wanted to save us from evil, pain and suffering. And that the only way to do this was to defeat the power of sin that causes all evil, pain and suffering, and to forgive us of our sins which add to the vortex of evil in the world.

So I hold onto this truth: that when I suffer or see the suffering around us in the world, that God Himself is not far off in the sky, unconcerned and unwilling - or unable - to help. God Himself has suffered. And He promises that there will be a day in the future where he rids the world of suffering once and for all, and wipes every tear from our eyes (how intimate that picture is from Revelation 21!), and recreates and renews and restores all that’s been broken or lost in this world.

But why does he allow it?

It must be that he has reasons that we cannot understand for allowing it.

Romans 8:28 “28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”

If he is all powerful enough to allow it or stop it, if he is good enough to suffer Himself so that we can someday be freed from suffering, then I think we have to agree that he also can be wise enough to have reasons for allowing suffering that will somehow work out for our good in the end.

So we can trust Him.

What if that future world will somehow be greater for having once been broken and lost? If such is the case, that would truly mean the utter defeat of evil. Evil would not just be an obstacle to our beauty and bliss, but it will have only made it better. Evil would have accomplished the very opposite of what it intended. (Keller, 117)

See what this means? Yes, we do not know the reason God allows evil and suffering to continue, or why it is so random, but now at least we know what the reason is not. It cannot be that he does not love us. It cannot be that he does not care. (Keller, 121)

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5. I know God doesn’t cause bad things to happen, like natural disasters. But then when you read in the Bible about God’s discipline, especially in a book like Hebrews, it confuses me a bit. What is the difference between God’s discipline and bad things happening because the world is full of sin? (Gray)

Great question. I think this can work as a partial answer to the previous question as well - why God allows pain and suffering.

Here’s the passage this person is referring to:

Hebrews 12:3–11 (ESV)

3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,

nor be weary when reproved by him.

6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,

and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

So God disciplines us like a father disciplines his child, because he loves us and wants us to share in his holiness. And this discipline is painful in the moment, but later results in us bearing “the peaceful fruit of righteousness.”

God is not the dad who just says, “Whatever you want, honey!” He loves us too much for that.

The main question we need to answer then, it seems to me, is how does God discipline us? What means does he use to discipline us?

More specifically: Does God cause bad things to happen to me in order to discipline me?

Did my dog die because I looked at porn?

Did I get in that car accident because I yelled at my roommate?

That sort of thing.

I think the answer to that is no. BUT — he may allow things to happen at different times in order to get our attention.

I read earlier from Romans 8, that God uses all things for our good. That includes bad things — things that are a result of living in a broken, sinful world.

God is sovereign, over all things, and in his wisdom is able to orchestrate events such that — even as he is not the cause of evil or suffering - when it comes into our lives, he gets the final word. He allows it so that he can train us in righteousness, instead of letting the enemy use it to destroy us.

So he uses everything. The sins of other people against us. The pain of natural evil, storms and earthquakes and tsunamis. For believers, no pain is wasted. God redeems all of it and uses it instead for his purposes.

Ps 119:71 “71 It is good for me that I was afflicted, that I might learn your statutes.”

He also uses what I’d call “natural consequences.”

When my oldest, Charlotte, refuses to eat dinner and wakes up starving in the middle of the night, that’s a natural consequence of her actions. It isn’t happening because God’s angry at her. It’s because she made a bad choice.

When you get in a wreck because you were texting, natural consequence.

When you get an STD for sleeping around, natural consequence.

Don’t blame those things on God, they came as a direct result of your choices.

But even then, God is gracious and will use them to help you become more like Him.

Evil will not win the day if you believe in Jesus.

So how does God discipline us? He uses everything.

Why does he discipline us? Because he loves us and wants us to be like him. The same reason I discipline my children.

Levity Question:

6. Will there be sweet tea & pets in heaven?

There will be things we love and enjoy, and somehow it will all be better.

The Bible talks about Heaven, not as a place that’s disembodied and in the clouds, not somehow less real than our current world, but more real.

The Bible’s illustrations of what heaven will be like include music and people we love and food and drink and animals.

Specifically sweet tea? Specifically your pets? I don’t know, but there will be stuff even better!

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7. Do you believe you can lose your salvation? What does the Bible say in regards to whether you can or cannot lose your salvation? (Justification and gospel presentation?) (What does it look like to walk with Jesus?) (Daniel)

The only thing you contribute to your salvation is the sin which makes it necessary. So if you did not earn your salvation, how could you lose it?

But you can, over time, prove by your actions and your heart that maybe you were never saved in the first place. Maybe justification never happened, and you were like the seed that was sown on the rocky path. It sprouted up for a little bit, but then the sun came out and scorched it. Or the seed planted amongst the thorns, where the life was choked out of it.

The evidence of your salvation will be your perseverance to the end.

THE BIBLE

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8. Should the Bible be taken literally or metaphorically? (Daniel) (2 minutes)

I just introduced my six year old to the first two Harry Potter books. She gets one per year as she gets older. She asked if it was real, if the story was true. I said no, it’s not historically true — it’s fiction. It’s not intended to tell a true story about a real person and real events.

But it is real or true in another sense, because it teaches us true things about the world — the fight between good and evil, love, sacrifice, friendship.

You have to read the Bible according to the genre you’re in. Historically, the church has affirmed — because Jesus affirmed — that the Bible is true. But what does it mean for poetry to be true? Poetry and history in the Bible are true in different ways.

9. Who edited the Bible to decide what texts to include and what to exclude? (Daniel) (2 minutes)

The process of “canonization.” Canon = latin word for a ruler, or the standard.

There was a time when these writings were all being circulated and used, and not necessarily all together. As a second century church, you may have three of Paul’s letters and one gospel, but not the rest, and so on.

Who edited?

Well, nobody edited. Nobody changed the text of the manuscripts themselves. There’s incredible consistency across thousands of copies of original manuscripts, showing the great care they took to treat these books and letters as God’s very Word.

But, the church did work to canonize or finalize the list of those books which were the inspired word of God, and those which were not.

Early Christians were not fighting the battles we fight, so they did not have a need to clearly and precisely discuss canonicity. Most of what we know as the NT was implicitly recognized by the early church in the middle of the 2nd Century.

Canon Chronology

1 Century: The Biblical Period

Canon concept is implicit in the text.

2 Century: The Sub-Apostolic Period

Canon concept is explicit in the writing of the early church fathers. Some books are still being discussed, but the ‘core’ of the NT is recognized.

3-5 Centuries:

The ‘stragglers’ are recognized. Why the Process?

The evidence from the NT is pretty conclusive that the earliest Christians weren’t thinking systematically about Canon, i.e. they weren’t embroiled in a “canon debate”. Later Christians were thinking systematically (discussing what books are in and out, producing lists, etc.) from the middle 2nd Century forward to today. What happened?

—> A series of events pressured the church to make definitive lists.

Internal Pressures towards canonization:

1. The rise of pseudepigraphal works claiming inspiration.

Works claiming to be written by an apostle, but were counterfeits.

2. Tatian’s Diatesseron.

He compressed the four gospels into one gospel, and the church rejected it. The church condemned it. They went “ballistic”. Diatesseron - ‘by way of the four’. An indication that by 150, there were four gospels. Even this is an indication that common belief was that there were four gospels in the early church.

3. The introduction of the Codex.

From the beginning, the NT circulated in codex form. The earliest forms of the NT that we have today are fragments of codices. They were not scrolls, because they were written on the front and back.

4. The missionary enterprise.

‘If we are going to go to places where there is no scripture, what are we going to take?’

External pressures:

1. Heresy:

Marcion, AD 140. Marcion set up his own canon to get the “Jewish corruption” out of the NT. When he says Matthew has to go, it at least tells you that Matthew was in (along with other books). Montanism. The battle with Montanism led some to reject books based on their love for them (especially Johannine writings).

2. Persecution:

The edict of Diocletian in 303 ordered all the sacred books of the Christians to be burned. This may be one reason why there are so few NT manuscripts before AD 300.

Canon Criteria

1. Does the book have apostolicity? Mark, Luke, Acts, and possibly Hebrews were admitted on the basis of close association with an apostle.

2. Does it conform to the regula fide? Does the book contradict accepted works and are the contents of a spiritual stature which gave it this rank?

3. Does the book originate in antiquity? Was it produced during the apostolic era?

4. Was the book widely received? How were the churches using the book?

BOTTOM LINE: What have we established?

Most books of the present canon are found in every witness to a canon in antiquity.

20 out of 27 were virtually universally received.

No book in the present canon had previously been universally rejected by the early churches.

No book was ever received that was believed to be pseudonymous.

No council arbitrarily selected or rejected the books of the canon.

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10. How can I make spending time in God's Word a delight rather than a discipline? (Gray)

Delight is often found on the other side of discipline.

How many of you can play an instrument?

Learning piano or guitar, practising scales, it’s not exactly fun. It’s a discipline. And there’s enjoyment along the way as lightbulbs go off, you learn new riffs, you realize your fingers can shape a new chord, etc.

But the real delight comes on the other side of practice, when you’re able to play without really thinking about it. You’re able to just enjoy the music and play freely because of the work you’ve put in before.

Delighting in the Bible is similar. You have to learn it, like an instrument.

All I can say is, the more you do it, the better it gets.

You can’t just try it once or twice a week at random times and without much a plan, find yourself bored or uninspired, and decide you can’t do it.

You have to jump in with some kind of consistency. Do it with some friends, or at least talk about the habit with friends so there’s accountability.

When you go, go with an open heart. Go looking for what the text teaches you about God, about yourself, about His plan in salvation history to rescue us through His Son Jesus.

If you do that consistently, I promise it will turn to a delight.

And then you’ll hit seasons where it wanes, and you’ll want to commit yourself to the discipline again. It’s dynamic.

BONUS QUESTIONS:

IF YOU HAVE EXTRA TIME: Lightning Round. Eat snack and 60s seconds to answer.

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9. How do you keep God in the center of your romantic relationship?

Create a culture where it’s normal to talk about spiritual things, your devotional time, what God’s teaching you, etc.

Three easy ways to do this:

Attend church together and discuss the sermon after each week.

Pray together.

Set firm boundaries physically.

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10. Can women be leaders/pastors in the church? // Why do women not wear head coverings when it's talked about in the New Testament?

Leaders - yes, we see it throughout.

Pastors - yes at Forest Hill.

Other churches interpret the relevant passages differently. Really smart, godly women and men look at Scripture and land on different places there (complementarian vs egalitarian views).

Why no head coverings?

This passage referenced is 1 Cor 11. Right before talking about head coverings, Paul is teaching about not giving offense to Jews or Greeks or the church, and try to please everyone. Meaning — where possible, meet cultural norms about eating and dress and hair styles and that sort of thing, so that you don’t cause undue offense.

He seems to be affirming the Corinthian church’s practice of doing this in regard to head coverings as a culturally sensitive way of living in that culture.

He seems to be saying, “In Corinth, women demonstrate honor and respect for their husband and submission to God by wearing head coverings, so it’s right for women in the church to do this as well.”

It’s culturally conditioned, not a transcendent, timeless command.

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11. Are we really supposed to tithe 10%? Gross or net of taxes? God doesn't have a calculator does he?

That’s the practice throughout Scripture. The idea is generosity, not accounting.

Do you trust God with your finances? The tithe was a spiritual discipline for trusting God first with what he’s given you - recognizing that you are a steward of His money, not the other way around.

It’s also a discipline that supports the ministry of the church so that the church can function as intended.

So gross or net of taxes? I think if you’re going to give the state a percentage off the top, you should consider that gross amount to be the starting point for giving to God as well.

Does God have a calculator? He doesn’t need one. He cares about our obedience. But the point is that it moves us to have generous hearts, which is really what he’s after.

Closing thought:

Some of you have questions -- is it because there aren’t good answer or is it a heart thing. You can have all the answers but you need to have the heart connection. Are using your questions to solidify the fact that you don't want to follow Gods commands?

Types of doubt: intellectual, emotional, or behavioral

GLOSSARY:

A few words that we might end up using tonight that you might not know.

Here are some large words that might come up in this conversation. We don't expect for you to know or recall all of them so we wanted you to have them on hand. Hope it helps!

Atonement - reparation for an offense or injury : satisfaction a story of sin and atonement He wanted to find a way to make atonement for his sins. 2 : the reconciliation of God and humankind through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. 3 Christian Science : the exemplifying of human oneness with God.

Cosmological - a branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of the universe. b : a theory or doctrine describing the natural order of the universe. 2 : a branch of astronomy that deals with the origin, structure, and space-time relationships of the universe also : a theory dealing with these matters.

Metaphysical - Derived from the Greek meta ta physika ("after the things of nature"); referring to an idea, doctrine, or posited reality outside of human sense perception. In modern philosophical terminology, metaphysics refers to the studies of what cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality.

Omniscience - Omniscience is the property of having complete or maximal knowledge. Along with omnipotence and perfect goodness, it is usually taken to be one of the central divine attributes. One source of the attribution of omniscience to God derives from the numerous biblical passages that ascribe vast knowledge to him.

Omni-benevolent - The term omnibenevolence means all-loving, and Christians believe that God loves everyone unconditionally. Also, they believe that God is omniscient which means that he is all-knowing.

Omnipotent - one who has unlimited power or authority: one who is omnipotent. 2 capitalized : god sense 1.

The Canon - an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture. b : the authentic works of a writer the Chaucer canon. c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works the canon of great literature. // The books of the Bible recognized by any Christian church as genuine and inspired.

You can search "Glossary of Theological Terms" for many more words and definitions that are not listed here.