Meeting those who oppose...

So, on Sunday you all were over heard by a few people (including Keelie) in a conversation speaking about not really being happy with the changes.

First of all let me just state that on the Lord’s Day, right before we take the praises of Christ to our lips, is not the time to go and spread your opinion and disagreement concerning the direction of the church. (It’s the wrong day)

It’s also the wrong person. If you have a disagreement, who are you supposed to come to? , ; ;

It’s the wrong place. That’s the sanctuary. That’s holy, it’s sacred, it’s where we worship God!

Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Some time ago I’ve talked with everyone here today. I proposed these changes

from Dee I got, “yes, we need a leader right now. I don’t even know these new people. So anyway that we can be brought to know them better will be better for our little church.”

From Joyce there was some apprehension of changing, but said that you would basically do whatever. Or try it.

From sister Regina who had some reservations in trying to think of everyone who may not be able to come due to the earlier start, but nonetheless said she’d support me in it and agreed that we needed to make a change.

Jil agreed, even stating that we had become like a stagnate pool, no movement. To which I completely agreed.

So I know that Dee, you’re not happy. Can you please explain why?

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So we heard some messages from God’s word on making disciples and fulfilling the Great Commission

Some time ago I’ve talked with everyone here today. I proposed these changes

So we’ve heard some messages about how a church loses her saltiness and how we are to shine.

Then we heard some messages on the first church in ACTS. Devoting themselves to the apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking bread, praying for one another.

from Dee I got, “yes, we need a leader right now. I don’t even know these new people. So anyway that we can be brought to know them better will be better for our little church.”

“yes, we need a leader right now. I don’t even know these new people. So anyway that we can be brought to know them better will be better for our little church.”

From Joyce there was some apprehension of changing, but said that you would basically do whatever. Or try it.

From sister Regina who had some reservations in trying to think of everyone who may not be able to come due to the earlier start, but nonetheless said she’d support me in it and agreed that we needed to make a change.

Jil agreed, even stating that we had become like a stagnate pool, no movement. To which I completely agreed.

Do these things find any expression in Scripture? A way that you could tell what people desire is, for example:

“I wish we had the puppets back in church, the kids really loved that!”

Could you be reading Scripture and pray a verse back to God that could support that desire (wish)?

Or, that you want more business meetings, sunday school, choir, puppets, etc.? Can you pray for that?

Does it raise a flag or seem odd that you cannot support your desires from God’s Word?

And if you’re upset about the time change, but you cannot find that God’s word doesn’t speak for or against that, what should be your attitude towards it? Do or die? Backbite?

I’ve got two reasons for the time change:

“In the beginning God...” (). I believe that we need to assemble to hear God’s voice first.

In seeing people leave for various reasons

Bible translations,

kids program,

Sunday School,

pastor wears a tie,

choir,

puppets,

music style

none of which is a biblical fellowship breaker,

And here is the devastating part, these non-biblical preferences are no longer on the peripheral, they are on the forefront. These things have taken on a life of their own.

So I don’t like the version of the bible you use, the KJV is the only version that I’m used to, so I’ll go to Victory because he even preaches against those who don’t use the KJV.

So they leave and are they concerned with whether or not a church lives for God’s glory, are they practicing biblical worship, are they concerned about the Great Commission?

Church has been redefined according to people’s preferences.

Explain biblical Worship vs the “Worship wars” of “contemporary vs traditional” forms of worship.

Explain how the reformers handled issues like the Lord’s Supper and how they would take every issue and reform it according to God’s Word, by taking it back to its original intended purpose.

drums, stringed instrument, loud referent singing to God, lifting hands in praise,

See it really has nothing to do with whether we’d allow a drum set in the sanctuary, or whether we have “traditional songs” or “contemporary songs”

Our concern is that our music and lyrics reflect the music and lyrics recorded in holy Scripture.

I’m seeing that God’s people are holding on to various things that hurt them.

Things that cannot be traced back to their original biblical purpose.

The time change is another thing that people will hold on to. No one mentioned their disapproval to me in two months and now that’s one of the main issues here...

So, as here is the case, non-biblical preferences and issues are creating bondage and strife, trapping us, and leading to sin.

So in this case, we let God speak and then we talk about what God said. That’s the idea.

What would happen if everyone dropped their preferences and just did what God wants (the Great Commission)? Carrying out the “One Another’s?

Aren’t we supposed to focus on doing what God said and not what we want?

See these fights over preferences is why people get frustrated with the church. Think of the early history of the church. Some days they’d go to the river bed and meet together and sing songs, hear God’s Word, pray for one another and leave.

Next time they’d meet at someone’s house and share a meal, sing songs to God, hear God’s word, and pray for one another.

They didn’t quibble over these things, they were more interested in serving others and reaching others with the gospel!

— Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

Every church member will stand before God’s throne and give an account for how he or she worked to protect the gospel in the lives of his or her fellow members (see ). That said, the Holy Spirit has made pastors and elders the overseers of the church (; ; ). That means pastors or elders represent the church’s work of oversight in the day-to-day life of the congregation. Submitting to the church often means submitting to them. Broadly speaking, how should members relate to pastors?

1. Members should formally affirm their pastors. Different traditions disagree on this, but I believe that since Christians are ultimately responsible before God for what they are taught (see ), church members are responsible for choosing their leaders. Congregations should let elders lead in this process, but the final affirmation is the church’s. (It may also be the case that the church’s authority to affirm its leaders is an apostolic authority, which it inherits through the apostolic keys. See ; see also the congregation’s role in and .)

2. Members should honor their pastors. Our culture’s ability to understand honoring seems to be diminishing continually. But just as the Bible calls children to honor their parents, so Christians should honor their pastors. The Bible even says to give them “double honor” (). And this includes paying them (5:18).

3. Members should submit to their pastors. These two verses in Hebrews need to be incorporated into our understanding of the Christian life: “Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith” (). “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you” ().

4. Members should pray for their pastors. These men are the ones whose lives and teaching help to sustain the church. Will it not benefit us to pray for them?

5. Members should bring charges against disqualified pastors. Since they are out front, Paul protects leaders by requiring two or three witnesses to level a charge against them (). That said, the congregation should not allow an elder who has disqualified himself to continue serving.

6. Members should fire gospel-denying pastors. When false teachers entered the Galatian church, Paul did not correct the elders. He corrected the church. When pastors begin to deny the gospel or teach other heresies, God calls church members to fire them.

The kind of conversation had on Sunday is why people “hate church”. How sad...

How much can we add to Scripture before we compromise?

With each person I spoke to, I used the same pool illustration, of all of us running in the pool the same direction and getting it churning.

With each person I spoke to, I used the same pool illustration, of all of us running in the pool the same direction and getting it churning.

I made the comment that you can’t have anyone standing on the deck nor sitting on the deck just dipping your feet, it was, “Everyone jump in and run in the same direction”.

So in all those conversations no one was against it. No one said, “NO, I’ll have to find another church”.

So here I’m thinking, ‘Wow, everyone is going to pull together!’

— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

(I want to make that clear, it was a proposal, it was “Here is what I see is wrong and that we are not doing and here’s what I propose) It was never, “This is what we’re going to do.”

So we heard some messages from God’s word on making disciples and fulfilling the Great Commission

So we’ve heard some messages about how a church loses her saltiness and how we are to shine.

Then we heard some messages on the first church in ACTS. Devoting themselves to the apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking bread, praying for one another.

So then why on the first day of that change, is there a problem?

When I handed out the leaflets, why didn’t you contact me?

Since the end of February (we preaching on Discipleship) for over four months we’ve been talking about all the things that we are now doing.

We’ve been hearing God speak, but are we really listening?

[how will you use your influence?]

And theologians divide his attributes into two categories: communicable

and incommunicable. Communicable attributes

may be communicated, or shared, with us. Think of God’s love

Think of God’s love or holiness. We, too, can be loving and holy. His incommunicable attributes, however, are those qualities that only he possesses. Think of his omnipresence (he is everywhere) or omniscience (he knows everything).

or holiness. We, too, can be loving and holy. His incommunicable

attributes, however, are those qualities that only he

possesses. Think of his omnipresence (he is everywhere) or

omniscience (he knows everything).

One of God’s incommunicable attributes is that he is immutable. He doesn’t change. We change. He does not.

Since you’ve been saved, are you the same person that you were then?

He doesn’t change. We change. He does not.

We Are Changeable Creatures

Perhaps you are thinking, “You don’t know what a creature of habit my husband is!” It’s true. I don’t. Yet I promise you that, however deep the ruts of habit are in your husband’s life, we humans are always changing.

habit my husband is!” It’s true. I don’t. Yet I promise you that,

however deep the ruts of habit are in your husband’s life, we

humans are always changing.

We are born, we grow, we age, we die. All this is change. We learn things we didn’t know, and we forget things we did know. We become more godly, or less. All this, too, is change.

We learn things we didn’t know, and we forget things we did

And of course circumstances affect us—sometimes for good, other times for ill. God doesn’t change; we do. We are by nature changeable and changing creatures.

other times for ill.

God doesn’t change; we do. We are by nature changeable

and changing creatures.

Added to that, we live in a world marked by serious spiritual conflict. Peter knew the world pressed in on his readers: “They are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you” (). Paul observed that the ruler of the kingdom of the air “is now at work” in the disobedient (). That’s why he exhorts us not to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds ().The underlying reality here is, humans can be changed— positively and negatively.

conflict. Peter knew the world pressed in on his readers:

know. We become more godly, or less. All this, too, is change.

“They are surprised when you do not join them in the same

flood of debauchery, and they malign you” (). Paul

We Influence and Are Influenced

observed that the ruler of the kingdom of the air “is now at

Another way to say this is, we human beings are open to being influenced. Remember what Jesus said: when a disciple is fully trained, he will be like his teacher ().

Jesus said: when a disciple is fully trained, he will be like his

teacher ().

In fact, I want to take this one step further: all of us inevitably will be influenced by others, and we will in turn influence others. “Bad company ruins good morals,” says Paul (), and “a little leaven leavens the whole lump” (5:6). The people around you will influence you, for better or worse. And for better or worse you in turn will affect the people around you. An absentee father influences his children even in his absence. None of us is an island.

will be influenced by others, and we will in turn influence

others. “Bad company ruins good morals,” says Paul

(), and “a little leaven leavens the whole lump”

(5:6). The people around you will influence you, for better or

worse. And for better or worse you in turn will affect the people

work” in the disobedient (). That’s why he exhorts

around you. An absentee father influences his children even

in his absence. None of us is an island.

How Will You Use Your Influence?

The only question that remains for you is, how will you use your influence? Maybe you didn’t think of yourself as having influence, but you do! You are created in God’s own image, and God is so weighty that even the impress of his image bears weight. Your life impacts the people around you, even if you’re at the bottom of the totem pole, or you don’t feel respected by the people around you.

your influence?

Maybe you didn’t think of yourself as having influence,

influenced.

but you do! You are created in God’s own image, and God is

so weighty that even the impress of his image bears weight.

Your life impacts the people around you, even if you’re at the

bottom of the totem pole, or you don’t feel respected by the

people around you.

Consider how Peter instructs the servants of unjust masters or the wives of unbelieving husbands (; ). He knows that both possess influence by their faithfulness. Wives of non-Christian husbands, Peter says, can win those husbands “without a word by the conduct” of their lives. And the example for each is Jesus Christ. Through his suffering, he brought healing and life (2:21–25).

or the wives of unbelieving husbands (;

us not to be conformed to the pattern of this world, but to be

3:1). He knows that both possess influence by their faithfulness.

Wives of non-Christian husbands, Peter says, can win

those husbands “without a word by the conduct” of their lives.

And the example for each is Jesus Christ. Through his suffering,

he brought healing and life (2:21–25).

In other words, you will have influence through the gifts that God has given you in creation. But more than that, you can have gospel influence, and amazingly, making a gospel impact in people’s lives doesn’t come only through your strengths, but also through your weakness. God does this so that his power would be displayed through our weakness and he would receive all the glory (see ).

have gospel influence, and amazingly, making a gospel impact

in people’s lives doesn’t come only through your strengths, but

also through your weakness. God does this so that his power

would be displayed through our weakness and he would receive

all the glory (see ).

So, again, you have influence. How will you use yours? When you step out of the hallway of this life into the room of eternity, what will you have left behind in the lives of others? According to the Bible, a disciple of Christ disciples others by helping them to follow Christ. Is that how you are exercising your influence?

When you step out of the hallway of this life into the room of

eternity, what will you have left behind in the lives of others?

According to the Bible, a disciple of Christ disciples others

by helping them to follow Christ. Is that how you are exercising

your influence?

transformed by the renewing of our minds ().

Augustine, the fifth-century African pastor, described this

spiritual conflict as a clash between two cities, the City of Man

and the City of God. And both cities want to recruit us for their

work. The underlying reality here is, humans can be changed—

positively and negatively.

Since you’ve been saved, are you the same person that you were then?

God has changed you through His Word correct? Do you think that that is supposed to happen on a corporate scale too? Almost all the exhortations to change and obey are all in the plural, which meant that putting on the armor of God isn’t an individual thing, as it is a whole church wide command to be obeyed! Do you understand that?

So all that aside, if you disagree with something, who is the first person you’re supposed to go to?

— “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. (; ; )

— Debate your case with your neighbor, And do not disclose the secret to another;

Open rebuke is better Than love carefully concealed. 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Is how we are setting up the church biblical?

Read , what is a pastor to do with ideas to do not match the aposles teaching?

Teachings that do not line up with the apostles doctrine are to be rejected (; ; ; ).

BackBiting. To slander the absent, like a dog biting behind the back, where one cannot see; to go about as a talebearer. The only RSV occurrence is , which speaks of “a backbiting tongue,” lit “a tongue of secrecy”

Lord, who may abide in Your tabernacle? Who may dwell in Your holy hill? 2 He who walks uprightly, And works righteousness, And speaks the truth in his heart; 3 He who does not backbite with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor does he take up a reproach against his friend; (; ; )

Whispering/ Talebearer. Whispering is usually associated with the telling of secrets that one does not wish to have overheard (e.g., ; ; par ). Sometimes it refers specifically to gossip that is likely to cause trouble or harm (e.g., ; ). Several proverbs warn about the destructiveness of malicious Gossip, which is eagerly devoured by those who hear it (; ) and has great power to create strife and alienate friends (16:28; 26:20).

— A perverse man sows strife, And a whisperer separates the best of friends.

— Where there is no wood, the fire goes out; And where there is no talebearer, strife ceases.

Gossip. Idle talk which foolishly or maliciously spreads rumours or facts. The effects of gossiping are divisive and destructive.

Examples of gossiping

False rumours were used to intimidate Nehemiah; ; ;

Dangers of talking too much

See also ; ; ; ;

A fool’s lips enter into contention, And his mouth calls for blows. 7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, And his lips are the snare of his soul.

Gossip can result from idleness

Gossip has disastrous effects

See also ; ; ;

— He who covers a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates friends.

— Whoever secretly slanders his neighbor, Him I will destroy; The one who has a haughty look and a proud heart, Him I will not endure.

— Whoever hides hatred has lying lips, And whoever spreads slander is a fool.

Gossiping condemned and forbidden

See also ; ; ; ;

— Whoever secretly slanders his neighbor, Him I will destroy; The one who has a haughty look and a proud heart, Him I will not endure.

— Whoever hides hatred has lying lips, And whoever spreads slander is a fool.

Advice on avoiding gossip

See also

— He who goes about as a talebearer reveals secrets; Therefore do not associate with one who flatters with his lips.

Do you think that the words shared on Sunday or over the phone that go on behind my back; are they words that build up and unify, or are they words that tear down and divide.

Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer; You shall cry, and He will say, ‘Here I am.’ “If you take away the yoke from your midst, The pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness, 10 If you extend your soul to the hungry And satisfy the afflicted soul, Then your light shall dawn in the darkness, And your darkness shall be as the noonday. 11 The Lord will guide you continually, And satisfy your soul in drought, And strengthen your bones; You shall be like a watered garden, And like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. 12 Those from among you Shall build the old waste places; You shall raise up the foundations of many generations; And you shall be called the Repairer of the Breach, The Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

— But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

— “Now my days are swifter than a runner; They flee away, they see no good.

— “Man who is born of woman Is of few days and full of trouble.

— Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my age is as nothing before You; Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah

The voice said, “Cry out!” And he said, “What shall I cry?” “All flesh is grass, And all its loveliness is like the flower of the field. 7 The grass withers, the flower fades, Because the breath of the Lord blows upon it; Surely the people are grass. 8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”

Remember you have but one soul; you will die but once; you have only one life, which is short, and which you must live on your own account; there is only one heaven, which lasts forever—this will make you indifferent to many things.

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.